We arrived at the church we attend to find names assigned to seats. Our names were on seats on the far edge. I noticed little kiddie tables had name tags at place settings for some of the older women and widows in our congregation. People were just arriving and weren't sure if they should sit in their regular spots or look for their names. My husband said to just sit in any empty spot. We defied them and sat in the middle.
There was a line of people on the platform who I understood to be church growth experts. Each one was to give a presentation. Then a guy who announces the news on a national tv network came forward and began to talk. This made me mad -as if someone had instant authority in a church just because he read the news on tv and people recognized him. We didn't even know if he was a believer. Then some people who were recognized as "experts" in their various fields added their bits. It felt like one of those meetings where management was trying to sugar-coat the introduction of a policy they knew the workers would hate.
What we were told was that if we wanted our church to grow to be a mega-church we needed to move it to Winnipeg. Winnipeg? I protested that this church was made of people who lived and worked right here in our community, but the experts said their data proved that we all needed to up and relocate to Winnipeg because it had the most potential for increasing our numbers.
Then a woman family therapist came in who had once helped me when I was in the hospital. (I later dropped her because, although she said she was a Christian she seemed to me to have very shallow values and did not comprehend the level of my spiritual struggle.) In the dream she had green Little Orphan Annie eyes with no pupils. She was also older and now had grey hair. She was asking me for sympathy for how life has turned out for her (irl her own family broke up and both she and the influential Christian man she was having an affair with, whose family also fell apart, have had to give up ther careers due to both being ill with cancer). She was very sad and begging my understanding -but suddenly acted like another competent expert when she was asked to perform on stage for the funeral of a young nurse. The funeral turned into a big stage production song and dance number that included several people from a New Age commune near our town. I just kept getting madder.
I woke up feeling very frustrated and upset that all of these outsiders seemed to act like they knew what was best for our church and that nearly everyone was listening to them.
church growth "experts" make me mad
church growth "experts" make me mad
...that I might know Him...
Re: church growth "experts" make me mad
Charys wrote:We arrived at the church we attend to find names assigned to seats. SOMEONE IS TAKING CONTROL ASSIGNING WHERE YOU SITOur names were on seats on the far edge.YOU ARE REMOVED FROM THE CENTRE...SIDELINED OR MARGINALISED I noticed little kiddie tables had name tags at place settings for some of the older women and widows in our congregation. THOSE WHO SHOULD HAVE HONOUR AND RESPECT ARE INFANTILISED People were just arriving and weren't sure if they should sit in their regular spots or look for their names. My husband said to just sit in any empty spot. We defied them and sat in the middle.YOU HAVE DISCERNED THE CONTROL OPERATING AND REFUSE TO SIT UNDER IT
There was a line of people on the platform who I understood to be church growth experts. Each one was to give a presentation. Then a guy who announces the news on a national tv network came forward and began to talk. This made me mad -as if someone had instant authority in a church just because he read the news on tv and people recognized him. We didn't even know if he was a believer. Then some people who were recognized as "experts" in their various fields added their bits. It felt like one of those meetings where management was trying to sugar-coat the introduction of a policy they knew the workers would hate.YOU DISCERN AND REACT AGAINST A WORLDLY MODEL INFILTRATING THE HOUSE OF GOD BASED ON THE SUBORDINATION OF THE CONGREGATION TO SELF-AGGRANDISING
What we were told was that if we wanted our church to grow to be a mega-church we needed to move it to Winnipeg. Winnipeg? I protested that this church was made of people who lived and worked right here in our community, but the experts said their data proved that we all needed to up and relocate to Winnipeg because it had the most potential for increasing our numbers.
Then a woman family therapist came in who had once helped me when I was in the hospital. (I later dropped her because, although she said she was a Christian she seemed to me to have very shallow values and did not comprehend the level of my spiritual struggle.) In the dream she had green Little Orphan Annie eyes with no pupils.PUPILS LET IN THE LIGHT...SHE WAS WITHOUT LIGHT ADN UNDERSTANDING...LOST She was also older and now had grey hair. She was asking me for sympathy for how life has turned out for her (irl her own family broke up and both she and the influential Christian man she was having an affair with, whose family also fell apart, have had to give up ther careers due to both being ill with cancer). She was very sad and begging my understanding -but suddenly acted like another competent expert when she was asked to perform on stage for the funeral of a young nurse. The funeral turned into a big stage production song and dance number that included several people from a New Age commune near our town. I just kept getting madder.
I woke up feeling very frustrated and upset that all of these outsiders seemed to act like they knew what was best for our church and that nearly everyone was listening to them.
...some observations to get things going...
grace
charlie
Charlie
Jesus said: I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3
Jesus said: I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3
Thanks, Charlie. I'm not sure where this fits in my life as the church I now attend has no aspirations to mega-churchdom, as far as I know.
I just learned last week, however, that the church I grew up in has over 50 staff members and now conducts membership classes online to more efficiently process new people. I just checked their website and all of their elders list their business and professional credentials first (law, medicine, oil company exec, financial institution execs etc.) Only two mention their spiritual gifts.
The site home page had ads for the sale of tickets to church events. This was my grandmother's complaint while she was still alive and been a member for over 40 years -that she couldn't afford to go to the prayer breakfasts. -Ah! The older women set aside to eat at the kiddie tables!
sigh
I just learned last week, however, that the church I grew up in has over 50 staff members and now conducts membership classes online to more efficiently process new people. I just checked their website and all of their elders list their business and professional credentials first (law, medicine, oil company exec, financial institution execs etc.) Only two mention their spiritual gifts.
The site home page had ads for the sale of tickets to church events. This was my grandmother's complaint while she was still alive and been a member for over 40 years -that she couldn't afford to go to the prayer breakfasts. -Ah! The older women set aside to eat at the kiddie tables!
sigh
...that I might know Him...
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Manassehs_Warrior
- Diamond Member
- Posts: 2750
- Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:41 am
- Location: East coast
I think Charlie hit a lot of it.....
The church is operating like the world, and judging and promoting on outward appearances and "accomplishments" instead of praying and seeking God (Whom we know looks at a person's heart). Promoting those who dont deserve it (the world again).
People pretending to be things they are not.
More concerned about "numbers and bringin' 'em in" and IMPRESSING others instead of being about the Father's business, spending time in prayer, worship, praise, mentoring those who need mentoring, deep fellowship, openness, honesty and moral integrity. Christians not ACTING like Christians.
You were angry because you see all this and well, one's natural inclination would to become angry at injustice (especially prophets, hmmm....).
The nurse represents to me the gift of mercy.... and also just compassion in general. Those 2 traits seem a bit lost in today's mess of a Church.
The church is operating like the world, and judging and promoting on outward appearances and "accomplishments" instead of praying and seeking God (Whom we know looks at a person's heart). Promoting those who dont deserve it (the world again).
People pretending to be things they are not.
More concerned about "numbers and bringin' 'em in" and IMPRESSING others instead of being about the Father's business, spending time in prayer, worship, praise, mentoring those who need mentoring, deep fellowship, openness, honesty and moral integrity. Christians not ACTING like Christians.
You were angry because you see all this and well, one's natural inclination would to become angry at injustice (especially prophets, hmmm....).
The nurse represents to me the gift of mercy.... and also just compassion in general. Those 2 traits seem a bit lost in today's mess of a Church.
**********************************
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean NOT unto your own understanding -- Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean NOT unto your own understanding -- Proverbs 3:5
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Manassehs_Warrior
- Diamond Member
- Posts: 2750
- Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:41 am
- Location: East coast
More thoughts:
Those in need of great healing and who are badly wounded, even dying, are leading others and this ought not be. Not that one needs to be "all the way OK" to lead or teach or preach but that *seriously* ill ppl, in spirit and soul, are being allowed in positions of leadership and authority (ur ex-therapist seems to represent this).
The older people -- and we are to respect and revere our elders, esp the widows -- being treated like children. How do u treat children at a "big person's" event? Put them in a corner, entertain them, keep them out of the way. Just get them out of the way. (UGGG!!!!!).
I believe GOd showed u much of what is wrong with today's Church and professing Body of believers.
I also believe u have a prophetic calling on ur life (if that is not a newsflash to u, pls forgive me
).
The Church turning to worldly ways of doing things, caring more about "numbers" than about individual precious souls for Jesus.
Those in need of great healing and who are badly wounded, even dying, are leading others and this ought not be. Not that one needs to be "all the way OK" to lead or teach or preach but that *seriously* ill ppl, in spirit and soul, are being allowed in positions of leadership and authority (ur ex-therapist seems to represent this).
The older people -- and we are to respect and revere our elders, esp the widows -- being treated like children. How do u treat children at a "big person's" event? Put them in a corner, entertain them, keep them out of the way. Just get them out of the way. (UGGG!!!!!).
I believe GOd showed u much of what is wrong with today's Church and professing Body of believers.
I also believe u have a prophetic calling on ur life (if that is not a newsflash to u, pls forgive me
).The Church turning to worldly ways of doing things, caring more about "numbers" than about individual precious souls for Jesus.
**********************************
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean NOT unto your own understanding -- Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean NOT unto your own understanding -- Proverbs 3:5
Hi Charys,
For your discernment, discard what does not rest.
Hi Charys,
Winnipeg means "muddy waters".
The red bath tub boat will come in handy.
As in The Bible, there will always be more followers than leaders.
Evidenced here, you and your husband are leaders, not yet fully defined, but in the center of this bizarre happening...getting a full (prophetic) view.
Discernment is highlighted.
This group of experts have unique combined leadership.
They are in unity--- in order to gain the most ground.
They pivot off of each other on cue.
There is no disagreement between them for the common cause to succeed.
I see Spiritual Adultry as the cancer.
Beginning in envy, that shuts out Gods light.
“But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness” (Matthew 6:23
Looks like a corporate takeover.
Seems they are pretty happy about the death of this young nurturer of those who are sick.
Perhaps there is still time for this little one.
Psalm 50
Psalm 73
Piano
For your discernment, discard what does not rest.
Hi Charys,
Winnipeg means "muddy waters".
The red bath tub boat will come in handy.
As in The Bible, there will always be more followers than leaders.
Evidenced here, you and your husband are leaders, not yet fully defined, but in the center of this bizarre happening...getting a full (prophetic) view.
Discernment is highlighted.
This group of experts have unique combined leadership.
They are in unity--- in order to gain the most ground.
They pivot off of each other on cue.
There is no disagreement between them for the common cause to succeed.
I see Spiritual Adultry as the cancer.
Beginning in envy, that shuts out Gods light.
“But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness” (Matthew 6:23
Looks like a corporate takeover.
Seems they are pretty happy about the death of this young nurturer of those who are sick.
Perhaps there is still time for this little one.
Psalm 50
Psalm 73
Piano
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Ah Piano. I love that you remember the red bathtub boat.
Bless you!
I'm feeling a little overwhelmed lately. It's like the Lord is throwing all this information at me saying, "Here. You'll need this," and I'm saying, "What am I supposed to do with all this???" and He just keeps adding red bathtub boats and ceramic angels and lasers and metal puzzles and reversing waterfalls....
I'm having a lot of dreams about having to suddenly go somewhere or do something important and I can't find anything appropriate to wear. Nothing fits. My brain doesn't even fit.
So hang on to your dentures, lady. I think we're heading into another paradigm shift.
Bless you!
I'm feeling a little overwhelmed lately. It's like the Lord is throwing all this information at me saying, "Here. You'll need this," and I'm saying, "What am I supposed to do with all this???" and He just keeps adding red bathtub boats and ceramic angels and lasers and metal puzzles and reversing waterfalls....
I'm having a lot of dreams about having to suddenly go somewhere or do something important and I can't find anything appropriate to wear. Nothing fits. My brain doesn't even fit.
So hang on to your dentures, lady. I think we're heading into another paradigm shift.
...that I might know Him...
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wantingmore
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 269
- Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:51 pm
- Location: Canada
Our names were on seats on the far edge. I noticed little kiddie tables had name tags at place settings for some of the older women and widows in our congregation. People were just arriving and weren't sure if they should sit in their regular spots or look for their names. My husband said to just sit in any empty spot. We defied them and sat in the middle. Sat in the middle maybe you and DH are in the middle of the church in your town? Between the different factions that have grown apart?
Isaiah 50:4
The Sovereign LORD has given me an instructed tongue, to know the word that sustains the weary. He wakens me morning by morning, wakens my ear to listen like one being taught.
The Sovereign LORD has given me an instructed tongue, to know the word that sustains the weary. He wakens me morning by morning, wakens my ear to listen like one being taught.
Hello,
A lot of what is above I think really captures the essence of the dream,
but I just want to toss in the following:
Winnipeg = Muddy Waters.
"muddying the waters" is a phrase that can mean dilution or masking of the truth.
The theme of this dream seems to be that "if you would move towards a compromised version of Christianity, you would be more appealing and see an increased following."
It strikes me as a temptation dream in a sense.
anyway...there's my 2 cents.
jeff
A lot of what is above I think really captures the essence of the dream,
but I just want to toss in the following:
Winnipeg = Muddy Waters.
"muddying the waters" is a phrase that can mean dilution or masking of the truth.
The theme of this dream seems to be that "if you would move towards a compromised version of Christianity, you would be more appealing and see an increased following."
It strikes me as a temptation dream in a sense.
anyway...there's my 2 cents.
jeff
For the life of me, I know one of the moderators or long standing members posted something about hearing the word connection??I'm feeling a little overwhelmed lately. It's like the Lord is throwing all this information at me saying, "Here. You'll need this," and I'm saying, "What am I supposed to do with all this???" and He just keeps adding red bathtub boats and ceramic angels and lasers and metal puzzles and reversing waterfalls....
I cannot find it anywhere!
I also thought about your waterfall dream this morning.
One prayer for myself as of late...
Show me how to live out those things You have planned Lord.
I must keep things simple as far as my Faith is concerned.
I have a tendancy to complicate what He shows me much of the time.
The puzzle has many pieces that fit together, themselves intricate. (I have no idea how to spell that word)
He is the one that puts the majority of it together, thankfully, and to His Glory.
Piano
Psalm 91 keeps popping up like a warm blanky
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
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labourer4Him
- Gold Member
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:29 am
Charys, when reading your dream it's almost as it's a follow-up/add-on to some dreams I've been having over the last couple of months.. I think this is a thing that could be happening in many churches over the world. I was just thinking about that connection, when I read Piano's reply....
Piano, you might have been looking for Discerning's quote from my dream thread 'What's to liquify?'
[quote] The only Word I have received thus far is that there is a connection. That's the word, Papa used. [quote]
http://tehillahdreams.com/board/viewtop ... highlight=
Sorry Charys, not much else to say for now, but I think this isn't just about one church, I think it goes further/wider than that..
Blessings!
Piano, you might have been looking for Discerning's quote from my dream thread 'What's to liquify?'
[quote] The only Word I have received thus far is that there is a connection. That's the word, Papa used. [quote]
http://tehillahdreams.com/board/viewtop ... highlight=
Sorry Charys, not much else to say for now, but I think this isn't just about one church, I think it goes further/wider than that..
Blessings!
Thank you all. Muddy waters indeed.
I was wondering about the green eyes without pupils -and yes it makes sense. Unable to take in light and also jealousy/envy, the green-eyed monster. I used to be consumed by competitiveness myself. I hated music competitions because they brought out the really ugly part in me. I could have easily rejoiced in a sudden case of laryngitis in a fellow competitor. Lord, forgive me.
Watched some children squabble over a game of monopoly the other day. When I confronted them they protested that this was the way the game is played.
Must this be the way the church game is played? Plotting, joy in other's set-backs, accumulating power and wealth?
It breaks my heart to see churches and believers competing -or setting up a monopoly by manipulation or demanding loyalty to a person or institution other than Christ. Hanging out and praying with believers from other fellowships shouldn't feel like cheating on a spouse. Who is our loyalty to?
Cried a lot today. The Lord has blessed me so much, but my heart aches for the church. Saw the green-eyed monster of envy and competition in operation several times in several places this week. Green eyes can be pretty -but not these ones.
I was wondering about the green eyes without pupils -and yes it makes sense. Unable to take in light and also jealousy/envy, the green-eyed monster. I used to be consumed by competitiveness myself. I hated music competitions because they brought out the really ugly part in me. I could have easily rejoiced in a sudden case of laryngitis in a fellow competitor. Lord, forgive me.
Watched some children squabble over a game of monopoly the other day. When I confronted them they protested that this was the way the game is played.
Must this be the way the church game is played? Plotting, joy in other's set-backs, accumulating power and wealth?
It breaks my heart to see churches and believers competing -or setting up a monopoly by manipulation or demanding loyalty to a person or institution other than Christ. Hanging out and praying with believers from other fellowships shouldn't feel like cheating on a spouse. Who is our loyalty to?
Cried a lot today. The Lord has blessed me so much, but my heart aches for the church. Saw the green-eyed monster of envy and competition in operation several times in several places this week. Green eyes can be pretty -but not these ones.
...that I might know Him...
Hi Charys,
It seems like the experts in this dream have wordly wisdom, neglecting Godly wisdom. They are doing what they see is right in their own eyes, but...they are blind.
I was reading James this morning...seems to fit well here.
James 3:13-18
(James means supplanter/usurper, and it appears from the scriptures that bear his name, that he learned Godly wisdom in his own life, regarding this same spirit.)
Piano
It seems like the experts in this dream have wordly wisdom, neglecting Godly wisdom. They are doing what they see is right in their own eyes, but...they are blind.
I was reading James this morning...seems to fit well here.
James 3:13-18
(James means supplanter/usurper, and it appears from the scriptures that bear his name, that he learned Godly wisdom in his own life, regarding this same spirit.)
Wisdom from Above
Who is wise and understanding among you?
By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom.
But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth.
This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.
For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice.
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason,full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
Piano
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Greetings
I'll add my $.02.
This seems to be a lot like the church today. There was a news piece about a month ago on ABC about how some "famous" televangelists don't even believe what they preach; many are atheists. They were in silhouette and their voices were "disguised. You can do a search on the ABC News Web site for the video clip if you're interested (it might be worth checking out - http://abcnews.go.com/WN/atheist-minist ... d=12004359).
Many of the mega churches today all seem to be lead by some "expert" in some area, or they invite "worldly" experts, mainly in the area of finance, in to speak to their congregations.
The elder ladies being directed to sit in kiddie seats could mean that even though many have been in the church a lot of years, they might not be any further advanced in their spiritual understanding and wisdom than a small child. Sad state of affairs.
As far as others being directed where to sit, or rather "labeled," that happens, too. The so-called elders or authorities "peg" people in positions. They also tend to paint pictures of someone's character, problems, talents, abilities, etc. based on their understanding/assumptions rather than based on spiritual discernment and wisdom; it's like a guessing game to them.
It all seems like a joke to them. However, God's business must be taken seriously.
Ah...just thought of one more thing...
The green eyes without pupils. It's said that the eyes are the windows to the soul. I've heard that the pupils close completely--practically disappearing-- for those who pass away with their eyes open. This could mean that you can't see into the soul of the church because it's like a zombie (pardon the term) and not really alive; it's just existing.
This woman is a counselor in real life who didn't seem very effective. She could represent the advice, counsel and spiritual nourishment that being imparted to the saints; it, too, might not be very effective to the masses because those in counselor and/or ministerial roles might not have sufficient spiritual depth and understanding to solve people's problems and impart wisdom. In real life, this woman's life was "jacked." This could represent the lives in those in authority. How can they instruct others how to live when they give in to temptation, have no discipline in some areas of their lives, etc.
Sad state of affairs.
Many blessings to you...
I'll add my $.02.
This seems to be a lot like the church today. There was a news piece about a month ago on ABC about how some "famous" televangelists don't even believe what they preach; many are atheists. They were in silhouette and their voices were "disguised. You can do a search on the ABC News Web site for the video clip if you're interested (it might be worth checking out - http://abcnews.go.com/WN/atheist-minist ... d=12004359).
Many of the mega churches today all seem to be lead by some "expert" in some area, or they invite "worldly" experts, mainly in the area of finance, in to speak to their congregations.
The elder ladies being directed to sit in kiddie seats could mean that even though many have been in the church a lot of years, they might not be any further advanced in their spiritual understanding and wisdom than a small child. Sad state of affairs.
As far as others being directed where to sit, or rather "labeled," that happens, too. The so-called elders or authorities "peg" people in positions. They also tend to paint pictures of someone's character, problems, talents, abilities, etc. based on their understanding/assumptions rather than based on spiritual discernment and wisdom; it's like a guessing game to them.
It all seems like a joke to them. However, God's business must be taken seriously.
Ah...just thought of one more thing...
The green eyes without pupils. It's said that the eyes are the windows to the soul. I've heard that the pupils close completely--practically disappearing-- for those who pass away with their eyes open. This could mean that you can't see into the soul of the church because it's like a zombie (pardon the term) and not really alive; it's just existing.
This woman is a counselor in real life who didn't seem very effective. She could represent the advice, counsel and spiritual nourishment that being imparted to the saints; it, too, might not be very effective to the masses because those in counselor and/or ministerial roles might not have sufficient spiritual depth and understanding to solve people's problems and impart wisdom. In real life, this woman's life was "jacked." This could represent the lives in those in authority. How can they instruct others how to live when they give in to temptation, have no discipline in some areas of their lives, etc.
Sad state of affairs.
Many blessings to you...